Sunday, February 15, 2009

Sound off 02-16-09

If you aren't interested in reading the autobiographical tale that I just posted, I would still like to hear your feedback on a question posed at the end of the story. Namely:

How could there be such things as fate and prophecy, if we have free will? Do we even have free will?

You might have to be a theist in order to answer this, but I'd ask atheists to take a stab at it, too.


  1. Is determinism equivalent to fatalism? Some views of human behavior (behaviorism) are deterministic.

  2. Predestination vs. free will. Thats something I've wondered about for a long time. I know what the Bible says about it and I am familiar with the Calvanist's doctine on the subject. I really have no idea though and when it comes down to it I really don't care because either way it doesn't make a difference on how I am going to live my life.

  3. Phew. Ok. Here is a glimpse into my non-traditional Christian views:

    We all have a certain place that we will end up at. No matter the path we take, the end is the same. We can choose to take Path A or Path B but they both lead to Corridor C. The choices we make may seem totally unrelated to our end place, but everything we do affects everything that happens. Me writing this right now instead of being at the gym could affect everything that happens tomorrow (namely I will be able to get my ass out of bed and wont be dying from sore muscles).

    I either believe that OR I believe (haven't fully decided which I like best yet) that we have the ability to take Path A or Path B with will take us to Corridor C or Corridor D. Either way, no matter which Path we take, it is already known what Corridor that Path leads to. We just get to pick.

    I think I like the second one better. Maybe. I don't really know.

  4. People say that the will of God can be broken because we have free will. But, that suggests God allows people to bring themselves to their own ruin.

    As far as eternal punishment is concerned, I personally can't compare our free will to a parent allowing a child to learn independence. But, if you can take eternal punishment out of the equation, then I can better see such a comparison.

    Otherwise, God seems to create people that he knows will go to hell because he knows their future and their end.

    That sort of undermines free will, doesn't it?

    I'll tell ya what . . . free will isn't worth eternal punishment. If God plans to send me to hell, he can violate my free will any day he chooses!

    And well, as far as prophesy is concerned, I've seen prophesy fail a couple of times. Prophesy comes from people. And as Zee once said, "People suck".

    Even if God gives a prophesy, he seems to require that his own messages are always filtered down to us through other people.

    And you know how we people can be . . .
    So why doesn't God simply tell us himself?

    Maybe I'm asking for too much.

  5. Maybe it is Providential that the LORD allowed you to hear that “word of prophecy” that resulted in dissuading you from the priesthood. This way His TRUE will would come to pass that you would eventually meet Scrip and all of us, consider many points of view, and of your own free will choose the path that leads to life.

    God works in mysterious ways. : )

  6. Hello Lion,

    Are you familiar with Open Theism?

  7. My thoughts on Open Theism:

    If I went back in time and killed my mom before I was born then I would never have been born so I couldn't have gone back in time to have killed her.

    God has predestined everything but He is open to changing what is predestined based on prayers and such but is it really predestination then?

    Free will vs. Predestination is something that has a stumbling block for many. Personally I like to take my skateboard of life and do a stall or 50-50 on the block.

  8. No, Script, I was not familiar with it. But Wikipedia was my friend. I can kind of swing with that idea.

  9. Uruk wrote: "I'll tell ya what . . . free will isn't worth eternal punishment. If God plans to send me to hell, he can violate my free will any day he chooses!"

    My thoughts exactly.

  10. That is kind of the point though. We are supposed to use our free will to choose to do the right thing.

  11. Sure . . . I believe in doing the right thing.

    But what if the things that I believe to be right are wrong?

    What if my non-belief is my ticket to hell?

    What if I become a believer again and the God I've returned to wasn't even the God we all meet at the end of our lives?

    God has the power to open my understanding and make his wishes clear, yet he allows me to mistakenly follow down a path.

    There are other alternatives. Perhaps I'm personally where I am for a greater good that has not been reveled. I want to make the best choice, but how much of my path is my own choice even if I go the way that I should?

    And why does God even need to be validated by our compliance to him? I don't care what ants do outside of my home. Just as long as they stay outside and don't bother me. Could God be so high above us that we wouldn't even draw his attention?

    Theists who see God as a personal and would reject this idea. But a vague personal God seems to be a contradiction at times.

    Then again, God may not be vague to you. If so, that's really cool for you. I often struggled and strained to hear "God's voice". Sometimes I felt as though I knew what he wanted. Others, I was wrong.

    OK. I think I'm rambling now. I'll stop.